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May 26, 2010

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debster7301

I LOVE it!! We need a clone of Christie in our state!!

Dan

YES! YESSSSSSSSSS

Dan

This teacher is literally like YOU'RE NOT PAYING ME ENOUGH RARRR... and then after Christie's brilliant response, says TEACHERS DO IT BECAUSE THEY LOVE IT.

If teachers loved it so much they wouldn't whine about pay like that.

Dan

Then the teacher said that's the only reason she does it, is because she loves it. Uh, yeah right.

Frank

Top shelf benefits, have the summer off. Sounds pretty good to me. But if a teacher wants to make more money, GO INTO A NEW LINE OF WORK. No one is holding a gun to any teacher's head to force them to stay in teaching. If they love it so much , quit crying. If they don't, with all that education, and collage degrees, it should be easer for them than some other's.

Maddie - Saukville

Dan and Frank, you've already pointed out the irony of her loving it so much she's whining about it so I'll do her math.

New Jersey, like Wisconsin, pays teachers closer to $130k/year when you add benefits, the largest of which is health insurance. Her math works out to roughly $80k/year @ $3/student/hour. So actually, she's being overpaid by roughly $50k according to her own math, when can the taxpayers expect her to reimburse them?

It is so refreshing to hear a politician talk frankly rather than telling everyone what they want to hear. Ignoring the writing on the blackboard is exactly how we got to this depressed state. Politicians in general do this because they think they can win votes and maybe short term they can. We keep hoping more people will remember long term, if you call four years long term and that's how long governors serve at a crack. I have a feeling this guy is going to keep more votes than 'conventional wisdom' would suggest and win many more next time and if not, at least the people know what they're voting for which is also rare these days. I wonder if other hacks might learn something from him if that holds true?

And if we're really outnumbered by the looters now, they'll win elections but the day they've bitten off the last chunk of the hand that feeds them draws ever nearer so they have their collective feet to the floor accelerating toward their demise.

Continuing at the pace of today, I think it is guaranteed within the next 10 years, 20 years max and I tend to do well on this type of prediction, frankly I don't think it is hard to see but a lot of people don't want to see. That kind of saddens me in truth since things have been heading in one direction only for the past few years.

derek

I just ask that people at least realize consequences. If you lower pay for a profession you attract less talent. So unless the issue is that we have a surplus of good teachers in jersey, keep in mind what you end up with. Yeah, i guess it feels good and all to say "if you don't like it, quit" but if people actually do quit, you've created a whole new problem.

The teacher's idea is nonsensical and would just turn itself into it's own racket, but at the same time, you can't make policy just based off "we need to plug budget gap A." Or in this case, the cowardly "i don't want to raise taxes to pay for the services people get"

I can only look at it from the point of view of my job. But it was the same sort of thing. The bush admin decided to stick it to controllers but what they didn't anticipate was people actually quitting. The attrition rate ballooned way past government estimates and caused damn near a staffing crisis. I mean, damn, they gave me a job and i had no relevant experience, no degree etc., all because they had to fill positions asap.

It may be government work, but the rules of the labor market still apply.

Dawn

So derek, what's the teachers fo MPS' excuse? Cuz from where I'm sitting they make a nice sum of money, very good benefits and really really nice pension plan and they can't seem to get the job done! FYI, It really burns me when I hear them complain after I had to take a PAY CUT of 20% just so I could KEEP my job.

Janelle

derek, didn't you post back to me that you had left school? If you are now employed by the government, that should give you time to finish your formal education at night or on weekends. And double major...if political science (oxymoron, in my view) is your first, then add computer science or another practical second major to your skill set.

Joyce

"If you lower pay for a profession you attract less talent."

Absolute BS.

There are very talented parents who actually care about the education of their child(ren) who are exceptional homeschool-teachers ... for no pay. Each that I know had to invest just as much on their own college education as that NJ teacher.

And there are many, many mediocre teaching professionals making big bucks, all-paid health coverage, etc. bolstered by the union.

j

A man among men... what a relief

hsgbdmama

Thank you Joyce. :) Being a SAHM and home educator is MY CHOICE, and I do not whine about it. There are lots of intangible benefits to this job too!
:D

I do hope Scott Walker is paying attention, seeing that it is possible to be bold and make the hard choices which need to be made for the long-term viability of the state.

PrivePilot

I wonder........
Does Derek see the irony of his post? The same guy who says the fact that the health bill ( which affects doctors pay ) will have no effect on the number of doctors, now says that lowering teachers pay ( union ) will cause less of them. Ironic isn't it?

James T.

PrivePilot,
Ironic no. Stupid yes.

LegioNofZioN

Christie is a political superhero, he needs to keep his nose clean and his memeber in his pants cause he could move beyone New Jersey after he completes his mandate. Derek I understand what you mean in regards to lowering pay, but simply put teachers haven't been squeezed enough in your country to reach near that point.

Moonbeam

Good for you, Hsgbdmama! That's hard work being a home educator.

derek

Well, i'm going to work off the number one axiom of air traffic control... assume pilots are the dumbest people alive.

The healthcare bill cuts in some places and adds in others. For example, to deal with the shortage of primarycare physicians, it gives a 10 percent increase in medicaid payments. As well as more loan forgiveness, and loan options to make the price of medical education go down etc. etc. Read the damn bill.

That's the point i'm making, work both sides of an issue. Recognize what you are doing to the labor market when you make pay cuts, etc. Yes, there is an effect to be had on doctors on one side, and there are things done on the other side to try to make off set that shift. Payments get cut, but customers get increased and the price of education falls. It's a mismash of thing.

Amanda Smith

I think the point the lady was trying to make is that even though you love your work, sometimes your not getting paid enough.
Actors had the same problem in old Hollywood. Judy Garland was always being over worked despite what her contract said.
Bette Davis went to court over unfair contracts and lost, Olivia De Havilland did the same thing and won, Myrna Loy went to court with MGM, and on and on.
Of course these actors "loved" their work too! Is it really "whining" to say that just because you love your work doesnt mean you should be abused by your employer? Should we just have told Judy Garland she should just quit if she "doesnt like it"? Because she "knew what 'the payscale' was? Bette Davis could maybe go work in a diner if she doesnt like the way the studio treated her?
If you dont like something you can always complain. Maybe your being treated fairly and maybe your not, but since when can no one complain? Since when can no one believe that they deserve better?
Its not contradictory to love something and still think your treated unfairly.
Usually I am of the mind "if you dont like it, leave". But thats not always the solution. If we want to take this thought process further we could say that all the blacks being segregated against in the south should have simply moved north. They shouldnt have made cases or voiced their complaints to Governors no matter how fair or unfairly they really were being treated or not. That is to say, its not a solution to "just quit", to just move away from a problem whether real or percieved.
This is what goes on in our country, when people have a problem, sometimes, that problem is really an issue that is reconsidered.
I think that if you dont think someone has a right to complain if they want to, you should move to North Korea, then no one will complain about anything to any officials. Maybe you can go to Iran where no women can probobly even teach anyway!
Amazingly, I agree with the first paragraph of Dereks first post!

Moonbeam

@ LegioNofZioN: I agree with your assessment of Gov.Christie. Morality does & will matter--- for Christie, for Rick Santorum, for any Conservative who might eventually consider running. All the best to Christie.

Frank

Hey Amanda, did you read any of Maddie's post up there? Does any of that compute? 130k a year that it equates to, adding in the benefits. Comparing Hollywood stars contracts from 80 yrs. ago? People have it WAY better in their job situations today, that is if you have a job, than they did in the 1930's.This is futile. I'm going fishing.

derek

It's sort of misleading to count benefits and salary. Do you do that for your own job, who could even name that figure off the top of their heads? No one has any point of reference to go by when they hear "130K counting benefits." For all i know, that's less than what the average college grad makes because I'm not familiar with occupations in terms of anything other than salary.

in all reality the only way i can see someone getting the 130K figure, is by taking the amount of pension the average teacher will collect in her lifetime and dividing it by the amount of years required to get that pension. That formula would jump my "compensation" up by 40 grand a year. Add in the 401k and for the sake of argument we'll say that's another 40 grand. Boom, i've dishonestly managed to add 80k to what i make a year. That's the only way i see someone getting that 130K figure for teachers. Healthcare benefits are only going to get you like an extra 20K at most.

Joyce

Here's the report of (Milwaukee) MPS salary budget for 2011... right from the school board meeting:
http://maciverinstitute.com/2010/03/average-mps-teacher-compensation-tops-100kyear/

The Milwaukee talented professionals deliver a graduation rate of 68%... kinda sounds as though many are not doing their job very effectively.

BTW derek "...The bush admin decided to stick it to controllers but what they didn't anticipate was people actually quitting." Why bother mentioning this about your profession... but do not even bring up the history... 1981 ring a bell... Oh I forgot... history began the day you were born.

Reagan did the right thing and fired all the air traffic controllers... didn't seem to hurt the industry... planes are still flying.

hsgbdmama

"It's sort of misleading to count benefits and salary. Do you do that for your own job, who could even name that figure off the top of their heads?"

You're not this stupid, derek.

Just because a person can't come up with the exact amount of bennies does not mean that those bennies don't exist.

Yes, bennies count. It is a part of the cost of employing someone. If that person is not employed at the company, those costs go away.

Many companies provide a full salary/benefit statement annually to their employees to show the employees the *full* cost of employing them (employer portion of FICA/Medicare tax, SUTA, FUTA, insurance, pension, match for retirement plans (i.e., 401k/403b) and so on). I've received them from almost all the previous employers I worked for.

It is easy to get to the $130K figure, when someone has top of the line benefits. Health insurance is expensive, and has been going up by double-digits.

Maddie - Saukville

Thank you Frank. And Amanda, I'm not suggesting that she does not have the right to complain but that doesn't mean I have to give her a free pass on having no clue at all of the reality of the real world where some, present video clip company included, teachers are on the opposite end of the reality spectrum.

Thank you hsgbdmama for pointing out that $130k still doesn't reflect the actual cost of employing that teacher! Double the taxes she pays for starters if you are the employer and benefits such as health insurance do count as taxable income! Great points.

derek

"Reagan did the right thing and fired all the air traffic controllers... didn't seem to hurt the industry... planes are still flying."

Hah, aviation might be the only industry in history to get worse with time. More fees, worse food, less room. Joking aside though, it took 10 years to get staffing back after the 81 strike. Yeah, america made it through, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea.

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